[Accessibility-ia2] Relations to move to previous/next paragraphs
William.Walker at Sun.COM
Thu Dec 18 08:03:10 PST 2008
In Orca, we use the FLOWS relations to help us with announcing text
selections and for doing "say all" operations. As such, we basically
depend upon the FLOWS relations to help us with the reading order.
I'm confused by all of this discussion, however, because when I look at
the paragraphs in an OpenOffice document, they all have the appropriate
FLOWS relations. In addition, if I insert a table between paragraphs,
the cells in the table also become part of the FLOWS relations and
everything seems to flow in terms of a natural reading order.
Malte Timmermann wrote:
> The question "How much of a burden would it be" is for Oliver, because
> he would have to do it ;)
> But I see one issue with this:
> Right now, we use this relation only when one paragraph is split to
> multiple pages.
> So the relation (also) tells you that it's basically the same paragraph,
> even if multiple objects for it exist..
> When we would use flows from/to for every paragraph, you wouldn't be
> able to figure out the difference between the normal case and the
> special case.
> On the other hand, I don't know if any AT makes use of this information,
> and/or if it's really needed.
> Also cc-ing Peter and Will, because we defined this behavior ages ago
> with Peter, and Will knows best how Orca would handle it.
> Any ideas/comments on this?
> Pete Brunet wrote, On 12/16/08 02:08:
>> Malte, How much of a burden would it be to provide flows from/to
>> relation between all the objects. Today the AT has to go out to the
>> document object to make the connection between paragraphs. Please see
>> Mick's comment in item 8 of the minutes for the prior IA2 meeting at
>> *Pete Brunet*
>> IBM Accessibility Architecture and Development
>> 11501 Burnet Road, MS 9022E004, Austin, TX 78758
>> Voice: (512) 286-5485, Cell: (512) 689-4155
>> Ionosphere: WS4G
>> From: Malte Timmermann <Malte.Timmermann at Sun.COM>
>> To: Pete Brunet/Austin/IBM at IBMUS
>> Cc: Accessibility-ia2 at lists.freestandards.org
>> Date: 11/19/2008 11:05 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Accessibility-ia2] Relations to move to previous/next
>> Sent by: Malte.Timmermann at Sun.COM
>> When I suggested the "prev/next" stuff in that CSUN meeting, I was not
>> sure about the concrete name, but "flows from/to" was exactly what I
>> meant. I didn't want to define an additional one.
>> For the implementation:
>> IIRC, our (OOo Accessibility API) intention was to help AT to follow the
>> text flow correctly, when ONE paragraph flows to multiple pages,
>> optionally divided by some header/footer:
>> <PARAGRAPH-XY - only some part of it on page n>
>> <optional: page footer>
>> <optional: page header>
>> <PARAGRAPH-XY - on page n+1, rest of the SAME paragraph on prev page...>
>> The intention was to then connect the two paragraphs via flows from/to.
>> There was no intention to connect all paragraphs this way in reading
>> oder, and also not to do anything special in the table scenario
>> described below...
>> Pete Brunet wrote, On 11/19/08 03:01 AM:
>>> At the CSUN F2F earlier this year we discussed the issue of an AT easily
>>> getting access to the previous and next paragraphs. Today the AT has to
>>> go to the parent and then to the previous or next child. It was
>>> suggested that maybe IA2 needs new "preceeded by" and "followed by"
>>> relations. There are already the flows from/to relations. Is there any
>>> reason why flows from/to can't be used to link all paragraphs?
>>> Xing Li (Syphony a11y development) provided the following scenario where
>>> a table is inserted between two paragraphs
>>> Paragraph A
>>> Table T
>>> Paragraph B
>>> and asked what the relations would be in that scenario and if
>>> flow-from/to is a must for all paragraphs.
>>> *Pete Brunet*
>>> IBM Accessibility Architecture and Development
>>> 11501 Burnet Road, MS 9022E004, Austin, TX 78758
>>> Voice: (512) 286-5485, Cell: (512) 689-4155
>>> Ionosphere: WS4G
>>> Accessibility-ia2 mailing list
>>> Accessibility-ia2 at lists.linux-foundation.org
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